A Chat with the Hocus Pocus Cast

It's been 29 years since Hocus Pocus released, and 30 years since the filming. The film, originally, was a little bit of a dud, but over the years has gathered a massive following, including yours truly. I love Hocus Pocus today. We'll learn about the filming and discover more about the film's legacy. With two of the original cast members, Vinessa Shaw and Omri Katz. Vinessa played Allison and Omri played Max in the film. Jeff Depaoli from Dizney Coast to Coast conducted this interview live on stage during Midsummer Scream.

Jeff Depaoli:  Hi, everybody. Welcome. Happy Halloween. I know you're not here to see me. My name is Jeff Depaoli, I'm the host of Dizney Coast to Coast podcast. Today I have two of the stars from Hocus Pocus, Omri Katz and Vinessa Shaw. Come on out.

Omri Katz:  Got some black flame candles for y'all. Set those here for now.

Vinessa Shaw:  Create the mood.

Omri Katz:  Hello everyone.

Vinessa Shaw:  Hi.

Jeff Depaoli:  Man. Let's get cozy here. We got a cozy. Thanks for coming out everybody. I know there's other stuff to do. There's a lot of stuff to do here. So, thanks for so much for coming out. I know it's for them. Excited to have you here. Back in 2018 I actually did a panel for the 25th anniversary of Hocus Pocus with a lot of the creators and Thora Birch. The first question I asked is the first question I'm going to ask you, it's the most important question. What is your favorite Halloween candy.

Vinessa Shaw:  Any candy that's vegan and chocolate.

Jeff Depaoli:  Oh, okay. What is a good vegan chocolate candy? I don't even know.

Vinessa Shaw:  There's barely. Ghirardelli 70% chocolate, but that's not going to be in a Halloween box or bag.

Jeff Depaoli:  It's better than like a toothbrush or something. So take the Ghirardelli.

Vinessa Shaw:  Or any razors in apples.

Jeff Depaoli:  Oh God. Wow.

Vinessa Shaw:  Did that ever happen? My parents scared me like stiff about that, but I Never got an apple with a razor.

Jeff Depaoli:  Yeah. I don't think that's real.

Omri Katz:  I totally remember that as a kid, like if any package was opened or tampered with like, don't eat that because people were poisoning children, I guess.

Vinessa Shaw:  Now it’s packages because of COVID, I mean, we don't what is happening.

Jeff Depaoli:  If you want to go down a rabbit hole, go to YouTube and like type in vintage Halloween safety videos. Who's done that?

Vinessa Shaw:  Wait, seriously?

Jeff Depaoli: Oh yeah. They're awesome. They're really, really good. We are so off topic and we just started

Jeff Depaoli: Omri, what about you?

Omri Katz: My answer is going to be very similar to Vinessa's, but I would probably say Sour Patch Kids. Because even though they are not food, they are vegan.

Jeff Depaoli: Fair enough.

Vinessa Shaw: Vegan buddies.

Omri Katz: Vegan buddies.

Jeff Depaoli: It has been 29 years.

Omri Katz: Geez Louis.

Jeff Depaoli: ... Since the release of Hocus Pocus, which means you shot it 30 years ago.

Omri Katz: Don't remind us.

Vinessa Shaw: No. It's like five years ago.

Omri Katz: Don't remind us how old we are.

Jeff Depaoli: Was there any inkling to you whatsoever when you were making this iconic film that you would be talking about it 30 years later? Was there any like spark or notion of, this is something special? We all know the story, it was a flop, but obviously it became something huge. Did you feel that on set at all or was it just like another gig?

Vinessa Shaw: You know, I felt it on set. We all thought it was going to be something huge, Kenny Ortega was coming off of Newsies, which was a great film

Jeff Depaoli: Great film. Big flop again, I'm honestly shocked.

Vinessa Shaw: But I loved that film, after the fact too.

Jeff Depaoli: Hello. I got my Newsies cap on. I was surprised he got the Hocus Pocus job because Newsies was such a big lop.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. But you know, how many directors get jobs after flops? That Doesn't matter. And he's actually, legitimately talented.

Omri Katz: I believe, and don't quote me on this, but I believe he had like a picture deal with them. So, they were contractual in order to do some stuff with them. I personally kind of, it was another gig, I didn't realize 30 years later we would be sitting here and there would be such a huge following. Yeah, it's quite impressive. Insane.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. Because even after it was a flop, it wasn't like rejuvenated all at once. It was about 10 years later. I was talking to someone out on the floor the other day and I was like, you know why? I think it's because it was 1993 when it came out, and then about 10 years later, like 2003-5 is when it started the resurgence of it. I feel like it's because everyone who were kids at the time started having kids, and then the movie started playing in their homes again. Then Disney channel was coming out around late nineties, and then ABC family, which became free form, was around that time. So, I feel like it was just everywhere. Then Halloween itself became like a huge event, which I don't think growing up, it was that big of a deal either. So, anyway, I think those things combined made it just that much more helpful for us to have this like huge, amazing ground swell of fandom for this movie.

Omri Katz: And, of course, you know, the iconic, witches, which is such a popular costume and just so Halloween oriented. I think that really just helped it grow to what it is today as well.

Jeff Depaoli: Where did you two grow up? Like, I know Halloween is bigger in certain parts of the country, for sure. So like where did you grow up and celebrate Halloween?

Vinessa Shaw: It's funny because we say hollow-ween here in California, I don't know why, but that really shows that my character was not from east coast because I'm like hollow-ween instead of hallow-ween.

Omri Katz: Massachusetts's here.

Vinessa Shaw: Exactly, so seriously, we both are California kids. He grew up in the valley. I grew up basically near the valley in Topanga canyon. Because I grew up in a canyon I couldn't really trick or treat, so I had to go to the valley where there actual neighborhoods to trick or treat.

Omri Katz: Probably to my neighborhood.

Vinessa Shaw: Probably to his neighborhood, that's right.

Omri Katz: I was like literally at the base of Topanga, we were practically neighbors growing up.

Vinessa Shaw: It's true.

Omri Katz: We didn't know each other.

Jeff Depaoli: I don't know if this's a movie thing or SoCal thing, but like I remember as a kid, Massachusetts, Halloween was always, you know, after dark. I remember watching E.T. and being like, "why the hell are these kids trick or treating during daylight?" Was that like a SoCal thing? Did people do that?

Omri Katz: I Don't remember. I don't remember daylight. I remember it always being in the evening.

Jeff Depaoli: It should be after dark, and then they changed daylight savings and bumped it a week or something, so it made it lighter later. I was so pissed as a kid, I can't even tell you. It's ridiculous.

Omri Katz: Why do we even still have daylight savings.

Vinessa Shaw: No, we got to keep it for the movies. That's not going to be a funny joke if kids in the future don't know what daylight savings is.

Jeff Depaoli: It's very possible.

Vinessa Shaw: You're like, "daylight savings time." And then people are like, "huh?" You know, we already have the cross trainers out of date so you can do something else.

Omri Katz: You can Google daylight savings time. If it doesn't exist anymore, find out everything you need to know.

Jeff Depaoli: So how did it start? Was the typical audition stuff for you guys? Did you end up doing a chemistry read together for the film?

Vinessa Shaw: I was supposed to do a chemistry read with Leonardo de Caprio.

Jeff Depaoli: Oh hello.

Vinessa Shaw: But he was busy. Then it was just me and Omri, and then it was like, "Hey, you guys just want to do it anyway?" That's what it was. It was barely anyone else, it was just me and you, Right? Did you read with anyone else? Because they hired him and then the girls, or whatever, were supposed to wait for Leonard Caprio, and then it was just me and you. I don't know.

Omri Katz: I kind of have some vague memories of that. I believe I did two screen tests, but like I auditioned several times, and then I didn't hear from them for like months and I was like, "okay, so I didn't get that project." Then one day I got a call like, "are you still interested in the work?" I think that's when they brought us in together to do a screen test and see our chemistry.

Vinessa Shaw: Which I have no memory of. Do you remember? I have no recollection of the actual like chemistry test at all.

Omri Katz: I have like, vague memories. I have this vivid image of where we were and how we did it, but that's kind of it.

Vinessa Shaw: Me too. I remember the waiting room, but not the actual... Odd. Anyway.

Omri Katz: It was a long time ago.

Vinessa Shaw: No, it's only a few years ago.

Vinessa Shaw: My audition was with Kenny Ortega, and after reading the script I was so excited, I went in and read for him, and he just was like, "thank you very much." Then I was walking out to the parking lot at Disney Studios, and he runs out and goes, "Hey Vinessa, can you come back and read again?" So, read again, he just directed me in a different way, and then I was like, "oh, I think I'm going to get this part." Because at first I was like, "eh, well anyway," and then he was like calling me back and asked me to do it again. Then later on I was doing the chemistry test. That's how Kenny Ortega was, he was just super excited if he really liked you. So, I could feel the energy coming from that second time he pulled me back into the room. But most directors would never run out after you, he's just a very hands on director that way.

Jeff Depaoli: That's very cool. Now when you got the script and you read through it, I guess a few questions? Was it something that felt special, or was it once again another job? Just because you're in this Halloween movie, sorry, hollow-ween, hallow-ween? Whatever.

Vinessa Shaw: No. Now I say hallow-ween, changed my accent.

Jeff Depaoli: What do y'all say? Hollow-ween, alright.

Omri Katz: Even though it's spelled with an a? It's not hollow it's hallow.

Vinessa Shaw: It's just our very California accent.

Jeff Depaoli: So, when you read the script, does it feel special? And were you Halloween fans? Because, it's a weird thing where you're in this movie that's become a classic. So, everybody kind of just assumes you're a big fan of the holiday, but like honestly, were you?

Omri Katz: I would say at the time, I wouldn't say I was not a fan, but I wasn't like way into Halloween. It wasn't like something I was looking forward to, I guess, except for the candy maybe. I think when I read the script I kind of just looked at it as another job, I don't recall it like really speaking out to me like, "oh my God, this is amazing. " It's kind of my take on it.

Vinessa Shaw: I think, I was not a Halloween fan either. I know, I hate to disappoint everyone. I literally would like never plan my outfit. I was like the day before going to my mom's closet, trying to figure out what I was going to be, and I would always be like, "a scary person," just not organized. When I read this script, it was actually, I don't know if you remember, it was actually written more scary. So, when I got the part, I don't know, this is hard to know in our teenage brains to remember, whether it changed before the screen test into more comedic. But I just remember the original script reading it and going, "Ooh, it's spooky and scary." More like Wizard of Oz versus comedic, and then all of a sudden it just changed and flipped into this really funny movie. So, I think that's the lucky part, is that it changed, because otherwise it could have really not been seen ever again.

Omri Katz: I kind of wondered if like the witches had an influence on the rewrites, given they kind of have like comedy backgrounds, Bette and Kathy, especially, maybe that kind of played a role in that.

Vinessa Shaw: That's true, because Kathy is comedy, complete comedy.

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah, well it wasn't written for Disney, and I think that was the thing. It was sold to Disney, and so it was a screenplay before Disney was involved. This is what I understand anyway, this is what Mick Garris, the screen writer said.

Omri Katz: Maybe we should interview you.

Jeff Depaoli: I know way more too much.

Vinessa Shaw: Or any of you.

Omri Katz: Tell us about Hocus Pocus.

Jeff Depaoli: Let me tell you, according to the screenwriter, it was written a lot darker before Disney got involved, and then it became more family friendly, but still a lot of virgin talk for Disney for some reason. We'll get to that.

Omri Katz: I'm out.

Jeff Depaoli: Made you a little PTSD there, right? That's great. So, I mean, the thing I love about Halloween is that it's a holiday that everybody celebrates differently. Some people, their favorite part is dressing up some it's the candy, some it's the theatricality, kind of curious, what is your favorite part of the holiday?

Vinessa Shaw: You're asking the wrong people, Jeff.

Jeff Depaoli: You still, you haven't....

Vinessa Shaw: I think it's going to turn around, because I have a four-year-old and once he's really conscious of Halloween, he I think I'll find joy through him. You know, I do have to say growing up in Topanga, there was my elementary school fair, which I loved, we bobbed for apples, did all the Topanga crazy weird hippie...

Omri Katz: Sack race.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah, that was the most fun, doing a carnival or something with all my friends and running around until dark.

Jeff Depaoli: See you celebrated. No, I love that. I remember my elementary school did a big Halloween party. How about for you? Did you have any specific, you're a horror movie guy, I can totally see you sitting at home with the friends watching the horror movies.

Omri Katz: You got the wrong information. But, for me, just in general seeing how inspired people get and how creative people get with costumes, regardless how serious you take it or not, I always was amused by just like how cool that could be. Just in terms of people just dressing up and going full force, you know?

Vinessa Shaw: I’m remembering in my like late teens or, you know, early twenties, going to WeHo and seeing the Halloween, basically, show on every Halloween beautiful costumes, and how people really do it versus me in my last minuteness

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah, WeHo on Halloween is intense for sure. It's pretty cool. I don't know if you remember this, but do you know where production started? Was it out here in California? Were you in Salem?

Omri Katz: Yeah, we did Salem for two weeks, I think, and then the rest was done out here.

Vinessa Shaw: Production designers here, Bill Sandell.

Jeff Depaoli: Yes. Bill Sandell, the production designer in the front row, give a wave.

Vinessa Shaw: I was like, can you help us? Because you were older than 16, and we're like, "where were we?" So we were in Salem for a week, and then did the rest of the production...

Omri Katz: Yeah, maybe two, something like that. But pretty much all here.

Jeff Depaoli: I want to hear about Salem. S, was it your first time in Salem and what was... I mean, Salem's amazing. I grew up 20 minutes from there and it's awesome year round. You guys were actually shooting around Halloween time, which was really cool. What was it Bill, The hundredth anniversary of the hangings?

Vinessa Shaw: 300th.

Jeff Depaoli: The 300th yeah. Anniversary of the hanging. So, like you were there for historic time. I don't know if you're thinking about that as teenagers, but like was it a really cool? Like did Salem feel different than shooting out here?

Vinessa Shaw: Oh yeah. I mean because the autumn leaves were just vibrant, as anyone who's from the east coast knows, it's like that is the prime time to go out and see them, and use that element as a background for this film. I enjoyed it completely, because I learned so much. I was in school learning about the beginnings of America, and American revolution, and got to go to the Boston Commons and see that. Because we flew into Boston and then went to Salem, so everything was an educational thing for me. I was laughing though, telling the story of the Salem witch museum. I know a lot of people have visited Salem. Who's seen the Salem witch museum? Oh my God, isn't it the funniest museum ever? I'm like, what is this museum? It's so bad. It's like bad, good. They have wax figures, you know, people stoned to death and all these things, but the figures are falling over and they're just like melted from, I don't know, when they began this museum, but they have not updated, apparently. I ask every fan who's been there and they said, "nope, still bad." I'm just like, and they have people pay for this thing! I just can't believe they haven't updated it. Maybe they just appreciate how kitsch is, or not, and they just don't care. That was the most vivid thing for me. I don't know if that was what you're expecting.

Jeff Depaoli: I love that

Vinessa Shaw: The autumn leaves and the Salem Witch museum and how bad it was.

Jeff Depaoli: That's amazing. One of my favorite shots in Salem is when she gives you the phone number back and you're walking away and you put the red hood over your head, and just that shot with you and all the leaves.

Vinessa Shaw: So iconic.

Omri Katz: Yeah, we were talking about it yesterday.

Bill Sandell:  It's the most romantic, beautiful shot in the whole movie.

Jeff Depaoli: Did you dress those trees or was that all natural?

Bill Sandell: We did supplement it a little bit.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. I remember some of the leaves on the ground being...

Bill Sandell: The beautiful red hood you were wearing.

Vinessa Shaw: The red hood. Oh my gosh. I think I was offered to keep that and I said no, what a weird lady.

Jeff Depaoli: Oh my gosh.

Vinessa Shaw: I have so many regrets. Anyway.

Jeff Depaoli: Omri, how about you? Any memories of Salem other than the decrepit wax museum?

Omri Katz: I did not visit the decrepit wax museum.

Vinessa Shaw: It was just me, me and my mom and our studio teacher.

Jeff Depaoli: That's hilarious.

Omri Katz: For me, yes. That was kind of my first experience, I think, actually having seasons, because here in California, it's one season.

Vinessa Shaw: It's true. Very true.

Omri Katz: So, I was very appreciative of like the landscape, obviously the autumn colors, and everything was really beautiful. Visiting some of the landmarks like Walden pond was very inspirational andjust being 16, I don't know you, you're not really thinking about that kind of stuff, but I do remember that really standing out for me, and even till today, it's still inspirational.

Jeff Depaoli: I remember I've lived out here for a long time and I went back one autumn after like over a decade, and the thing that hit me that I had forgotten about was the smell of dead leaves. I got this crazy ass sense memory when like I got that and I was like, "this is amazing." I remember having to rake those things up as a kid and clean the yard like, "why would anybody clean this up? It's so beautiful." I love it so much.

Vinessa Shaw: Well that memory is triggering my memory of if I smell mulch, or any sort of deep dirt smell, I think of the Hocus Pocus set because Bill brought in all these trees that were, you know, appropriate for Hocus Pocus and Massachusetts, and that smell forever will remind me of that. See, that reminds you of home, this reminds me of the Hocus Pocus set, because again, as Omri says, we don't have seasons here and we definitely don't have any autumn leaves. So, that's my beautiful memory, that smell of Hocus Pocus.

Jeff Depaoli: Have you been back to Salem or that area at all?

Vinessa Shaw: I've been back to Massachusetts, but not Salem, not for 29 years, down to the day. No.

Jeff Depaoli: Love it. Good answer.

Omri Katz: I have not either, but I'm actually going to be there in October, first time in 29 years. Actually, for 30 years, because we filmed in '92 ad it was released '93.

Vinessa Shaw: That's right!

Jeff Depaoli: Are you going for a convention?

Omri Katz: It's not a convention, I'm doing kind of a private signing. I don't remember the details off the top of my head right now. Yeah, I'm doing a few small events out there. Go check it out. See how it goes.

Jeff Depaoli: Very cool. So, we're talking about Salem, you mentioned, Bill said, you shot on the Walt Disney Studios a lot. I mean, that set is gorgeous, the witches cabin is gorgeous. Do you have any memory of walking onto that set the first time? The cemetery? And just like, was there an, "oh wow. Holy crap. This is a different kind of movie, this ain't Ladybugs," you know? Like, this is like a Hollywood set sort of thing. Not just on location.

Vinessa Shaw: I don't know if I remember the first time. But wow, every day you'd go onto this set and the details, Bill was just reminding me, it's like you walk in there's the river, and the cement river that it becomes to, and the water wheel. I mean, we loved it so much that our family took our family holiday photo in front of the house.

Jeff Depaoli: Oh, wow.

Vinessa Shaw: I think my sister, if I remember correctly, put her head through the guillotine, and we were like, "yeah, that's cool." Anyway, you guys would love that, but our family did not, because you're horror fans. Again, it wasn't like a facade, like most movies you have a facade of the house, and then separately there's the actual inside, but the inside and the outside, and the details and the spider webs, and then Billy's graveyard was over here. Going through the hole, when we have to jump through the hole underground, I literally remember every part of the design, and that was all Bill. Again, it was just like every bit of the set looks like a bigger part of what it was, but you never get that on films anymore. The practical sensory thing of the whole set. We didn't have to imagine people too much off in the distance, they were physically there, except for the witches, sorry, we were young, and anyway, there's a long story about child labor laws. Just every day being able to experience the vastness and the actual literal set in its form that you see on screen was really cool.

Omri Katz: For me personally, same thing, not like primarily like the first day, but I feel like every time we got to work on that set, in that house, or in that setting was truly impressive. Like Vinessa was mentioning just the details, like it was so rustic and it just really looked like a 300 year old house. It was not really much like Styrofoam, I don't even know what you call it, but it was literally a full structured house.

Vinessa Shaw: No breakaway walls.

Omri Katz: Yeah. No breakaway walls.

Jeff Depaoli: Didn't Michael Jackson want it? Is that true Bill? Yeah, Michael Jackson wanted it.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. Kenny Ortega did a lot of his music videos, they became close after and that. Then he choreographed his last concert. Right?

Jeff Depaoli: This is it, yeah directed that.

Jeff Depaoli: He was just saying that Kenny Ortega's voice, if you've seen This Is It, the Michael Jackson documentary of his final concert, Kenny Ortega's is the last voice you hear. Then he directed that, so it's pretty cool, but he did not get the cabin. It just got destroyed, which is ridiculous. I heard a gasp, I know, they should have taken it to like Disneyland.

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah. Should have gone Tom Sawyer Island.

Vinessa Shaw: You know, you guys, we're the stepchild of Disney.

Jeff Depaoli: It was a flop. You were released in July. They did not care. All they worried about was Nightmare Before Christmas, released 1993.

Omri Katz: Well, that was their strategy and it obviously failed. I was going to just add on top of that, previously I worked on Eerie, Indiana, so like coming from that production, which had also just the most incredible sets and cast and amazing, insane stories. I guess walking onto the Hocus Pocus set I just kind of felt right at home or something, because I was just like, "oh one weird thing to the next weird thing, that's awesome. It's all good."

Jeff Depaoli: Now you two were the closest in age in the cast, were you two hanging out the most? Or like was Thora, I don't know, was she hanging out with you guys? She was considerably younger.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. Thora was 10 playing eight years old, and we were 16, but I feel like Thora and I were pretty close. My sister was 11 at the time, so not too far in age. So, I felt like a sisterly relationship with her. Interestingly enough, because we were kids, we had bed times. We were still 16, we weren't 17 or 18 really yet. I mean Omri drove, but I didn't drive yet. I saw Omri on the freeway and it's VW bus one time with me in the passenger seat, "hey!"

Omri Katz: With smoke coming out the windows.

Vinessa Shaw: Totally. Grateful Dead playing. So, we went home, went to bed, well you guys were out of school, but I had school the next day. I was in public school. If I wasn't working on set, I was going to school. So, I only remember hanging out with Omri when you invited me over to your birthday party, or some sort of event, at your house with your family. I met his whole family, but Thora lived way out in like some ranch, so it was hard to get together with her, two hours away I think. Then they had like a place in LA. So, sorry, this sounds very boring, but we didn't hang out.

Omri Katz: All the time, we did everything together. We were roommates and we carpooled.

Vinessa Shaw: We should have carpooled, you and me.

Omri Katz: She doesn't remember. I remember.

Jeff Depaoli: Let's talk about someone I'm sure you did not hang out with, but it would be ridiculous to talk about this movie and not talk about her. Working with Bette Midler. I mean, at 16 do you get, this is Bette Midler?

Omri Katz: Nope.

Vinessa Shaw: Vinessa got it and Omri was like, "oh I'm listening to Grateful Dead." Right. I mean, Bette Midler, what is that like? I mean, did you interact with her off camera? You had a lot of scenes with her, a lot.

Vinessa Shaw: Actually, we didn't.

Jeff Depaoli: You had some epic scenes in the cemetery.

Vinessa Shaw: You guys did. I didn't.

Omri Katz: But well, even so though that was kind of just like filmed in a very short period of time, because you know how they jump around the script for production and efficiency. So, they'll film whatever type of scenes all kind of compacted in that one week or two. Most of the time we didn't really work with them. A lot of times they were hanging on the harness or doing that kind of stuff, so I didn't feel like we actually got to work super, super close.

Vinessa Shaw: This goes into what, I don't know if you all know, but child, actors can only work 10 and a half hours a day. So, literally when we were done, and they were in four hours of makeup. So, the time we saw them was in the makeup trailer and our makeup trailer was connected to Kathy's and Sarah Jessica. So, we would talk to them more than Bette Midler's, because hers was in a separate area. So, I feel like I know Kathy and Sarah Jessica more, and Sarah Jessica's really cool with me. She was on Broadway as a child, she's goes, "you're so young starting out, is this something you want to do for the rest of your life?" And I'm like, "yeah, give me any advice, this is my second movie." I feel like the one scene I remember clearly for me was the salt scene, because all three of them were there and I was so nervous. Because I'm like, "we barely have any scenes with them," because basically we never saw them. We were having to imagine them in the sky, and they were imagining us on the ground, I'm sure. So, all three of them were in this scene and I'm like the last one called to set, and they're already there, and I was like, "crap," I'm just like, "uhhuhujhuh", and I'm like, I did one swirl of the salt and Kenny's like, "really get into it like pour, pour, pour." I was like, "oh thank you. I can release my nervous energy." Because they're all like doing their thing and I was like, "they're so good!" Then I had to be brought out of it and I was just like, okay, good salt is getting me into it. But that was literally the only one, and then I think Thora, with her being lifted into the sky at the very end, was her only one really too. Again, they were in the sky, and we were on the ground, and it was easy to separate us and do us at different times.

Jeff Depaoli: I put a spell on you. Were you not there for that?

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah, we were, but they were already on the stage, we were like basically background. We were with the whole other cast. That was a very exciting moment in the filming because it was just...

Omri Katz: I remember that really well.

Vinessa Shaw: Full out, pull out all the stops, bands and everything. Kenny was originally a choreographer, so he is just like, "and five, six, seven, eight." And we're like, "wow!" Like it was just, "where are we?" So, that was special, that scene, for sure.

Jeff Depaoli: "Thank you Max for that marvelous introduction." So good.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. We knew that number was spectacular, we could feel that in our bones.

Jeff Depaoli: Now Thora Birch actually said, when I interviewed her once, that you were jealous of her because she got to fly and you didn't, although you did get to fly toward the end of the film, but is there any truth to that or is she making this up?

Vinessa Shaw: I'm pretty sure I said that. I mean, because I've never been in a harness, and then subsequently few years later was, and I was like, "this sucks nobody ever wants to be in those things. They hurt."

Omri Katz: When Bette was holding me up and turns into a bat.

Jeff Depaoli: So, you get to fly a little bit.

Omri Katz: So, I did, yeah, I guess I got to fly. I wasn't really flying, I was hanging, I guess. Which is interesting, because when you're wearing a harness and it's like riding up that area...

Vinessa Shaw: It's really is not.

Omri Katz: This is not very comfortable. Then there was obviously that other scene where she throws me up against the wall and lifts me up, and that was same thing, I don't know how they did it. But like same thing, harness and pulleys and something dragged me along the floor, and then basically were raising me up the wall and not very comfortable, but movie magic at its finest.

Jeff Depaoli: I love that scene. I mean the cabin we were talking about earlier, but I just love the scene where the spell happens and the floorboards start moving and the green light shines through.

Vinessa Shaw: My favorite scene.

Jeff Depaoli: That is like visually stunning, like absolutely beautiful. I remember it in all the commercials and everything, I was like, yeah, that's a really, really great scene. But, we got to talk for a second about virgins. Mic drop. I'm curious.

Omri Katz: Am I still a virgin?

Jeff Depaoli: No.

Omri Katz: Yes, I am. Any... uh?

Jeff Depaoli: No. I'm curious to get your opinions on something. I'm wondering, do you think the spell would've worked if Allison lit the candle?

Omri Katz: Well, I don't know. I mean, were you ever virgin?

Vinessa Shaw: No. Thanks

Jeff Depaoli: The character at least.

Omri Katz: Yeah, I don't know.

Jeff Depaoli: I don't think it would work.

Omri Katz: I think she was a virgin character. Right?

Vinessa Shaw: Speak for yourself.

Omri Katz: I'm asking. It's a question.

Jeff Depaoli: She's not.

Omri Katz: Obviously I was.

Vinessa Shaw: A woman does not share her secrets.

Jeff Depaoli: Max was, but do you think Max was by the end of the movie?

Vinessa Shaw: Dang.

Omri Katz: Wait to find out in the sequel.

Jeff Depaoli: Okay. I'm going to. Yeah, we wish. No, there are theories out there and I'm going to plug a very good book, and it's shameless because a very good friend of mine wrote it, it's called Hocus Pocus and Focus, and there's a whole theory about Max, by the end, is not a virgin. the theory is this...

Vinessa Shaw: We are interviewing him.

Jeff Depaoli: No, the theory is the word children, If you replace it with the word virgin in the film, "come little children." So, she's saying come little virgin. So, the children that are taken by the spell, by the song, are virgins. By the end of the film, Max is not affected by that song. Also, Max drinks this potion, and when she sucks the soul out of him, as we've seen her do with Emily, it doesn't work. He ain't a virgin.

Omri Katz: Sorry, I had some vague memories, but doesn't it like start to work and then...

Jeff Depaoli: No, you get the glow around him, but she sucked more out of Emily than she did out of Max. So, if Max was a virgin that would've worked. Listen, I didn't write the script.

Omri Katz: It's Disney. So we can't...

Vinessa Shaw: What about Thora?

Jeff Depaoli: Thora was a virgin.

Vinessa Shaw: But she would've been under the spell too, but she covered her ears.

Jeff Depaoli: She didn't drink the potion.

Vinessa Shaw: Oh, the potion, right?

Jeff Depaoli: In any case...

Vinessa Shaw: See, we got to interview you.

Jeff Depaoli: Here's the thing, I think not a virgin by the end of the film. Never a virgin, that's my theory personally.

Vinessa Shaw: Never since birth. I'm kidding.

Omri Katz: We'll let you guess for yourself.

Jeff Depaoli: So, I mean, you worked with some pretty cool special effects. We talked about the flying, but also Billy Butcherson. I love the scene where...

Omri Katz: We love Doug Jones, by the way. The best dude.

Vinessa Shaw: Doug is an angel and the best guy ever.

Omri Katz: Sorry to cut you off.

Jeff Depaoli: No, no. And you get to see him like cut his mouth open, and the real moth's come flying out.

Vinessa Shaw: See, that's so cool too.

Jeff Depaoli: So many special effects, so many makeup effects. Do you have any like just specific memories about kind of favorite days, or things that took a billion times to shoot, you know, like 10 takes or whatever?

Vinessa Shaw: Well, you mentioned my favorite scene and then went on to the virgin part. My favorite scene is the same one you like. The candle, the light bulbs go out, the floor starts shaking, there's green lights coming through, the wind starts blowing, the eyes going. So, being literally on a set that had practical effects, like that was so cool to me. I was just blown away. I was a kid and this was my second movie, and I was just like, "I cannot believe I'm in a movie, like a movie that," because I grew up watching Wizard of Oz and all these Disney movies I watched like That Darn Cat or Flubber, like those movies where there's special effects that are practical. I was like, "wow, I'm doing one of those kinds of movies right now." I just remember after every take, it would just be, "woosh," and then we stopped, and then "a virgin? Get the blacklight candle." We just all busted up at the end, just how funny she was. My God. So, not only was it the practical effects, but it was her and her button statement in the end of that scene. That was my favorite days.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome.

Omri Katz: Yeah. I kind of feel like anytime we got to work in the house, in general, that scene, and pretty much any scene, I think we were all just kind of in awe. Burning reign of death, yeah. I didn't do all my own stunts, sorry to disappoint you guys, but yeah, I just felt like anytime we got to work on that set was just like the best time.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome. Now, obviously, here, people recognize you, but in everyday life, do people recognize you for Hocus Pocus? And if so, is there like a line from the film that they want you to say?

Omri Katz: For me, usually it's, "just a bunch of Hocus Pocus." Yeah. That's probably the most popular.

Jeff Depaoli: Come on. Say it with some feeling, don't disappoint these people.

Omri Katz: "It's just a bunch of Hocus Pocus." Better?

Jeff Depaoli: Thank you. Thank you.

Omri Katz: And the Oscar goes too.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. People always go up to me and go, "wait, I know you, I know you. Oh my God. I know you... The girl from Hocus Pocus." That's what they say, the girl from Hocus Pocus. Then I think they think of a line and they get shy and then they go, "wait no, okay, it's you." So, you know what line they're thinking of? The Yabos line, even though it's not mine, but they're like, "oh yeah. Um, yeah. So, how was it doing that movie?" So that's it. That was never, the line that I say, it's yours.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome. That's great. When's the last time you were with Thora? I remember seeing you, I believe the 25th anniversary in the cemetery, because that's a normal place to hang out. Have you guys been together since then? Because I mean the three of you together must make fan's heads explode.

Vinessa Shaw: I think the last time we all three hung out together was the 20th anniversary. We went out to dinner afterward.

Omri Katz: Didn't we do the...

Vinessa Shaw: Oh, we did the 25th.

Omri Katz: Yeah. With the cemetery.

Vinessa Shaw: I think that was the last time. I've hung out with Thora because she's come over and met my son. Yeah, we still have a great relationship. I never hang out with Omri still.

Omri Katz: I'm too cool to hang out with, too busy.

Vinessa Shaw: No, but now we get to hang out at these things, which is so fun. I just love being with him. So, the three of us together officially was, I guess, four years ago.

Jeff Depaoli: Pretty cool.

Omri Katz: Didn't we do the...

Vinessa Shaw: But we're on a group chat together.

Jeff Depaoli: Oh, are you really?

Omri Katz: Then there was like a 30th anniversary for Ghostbusters at the cemetery, and I think all three of us were there as well.

Vinessa Shaw: No, it was just you and me.

Omri Katz: Was it?

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah, and Salt'n'Pepa and really cool people.

Omri Katz: Oh, that's right Larry and Tobias.

Vinessa Shaw: Like Christine Aguilera. I was like, "nice to meet you. What is going on?" That was when I realized this is beyond. And like the Osborne's were hosting. I was like, "you guys know this movie?" And apparently Christine Aguilar loves this movie and I was like, "huh, dying."

Jeff Depaoli: When do you think that blew up? I think you kind of mentioned it earlier, like early two thousands is when the film kind of blew up for you guys again.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. It's hard to recall, but it feels like that's when it came and started building steam again, like mid 2007ish. I don't know. What do you guys think?

Bill Sandell: Disney Channel.

Omri Katz: Yeah, and DVD release probably, you know?

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah. VHS.

Vinessa Shaw: Maybe there's someone who can really do a proper study.

Jeff Depaoli: Blockbuster.

Omri Katz: Definitely DVD amped it up.

Jeff Depaoli: "Blockbuster video..."

Vinessa Shaw: "...What a difference."

Jeff Depaoli: Oh my God. I love you so much right now. The fact that you know the Blockbuster jingle just made my day. I'm going to admit something that like, I probably shouldn't admit right now, but like I had a crush on both of you. So, I'm telling you, Lady Bugs, Matinee, and Hocus Pocus was like, "uhhh" for me. So, I was a confused kid, but I figured it out. So, this is kind of weird and surreal, but. Why would you see that out loud in public? I don't know. So folks, we all know there's a sequel. I'm sure you probably know they're not in it, wa waaa.

Omri Katz: Or are we?

Jeff Depaoli: Let's start that rumor. Laughing Place, Laughing Place, you got that Laughing Place? Come on, publish that. All right. You're not in the sequel, but obviously I'm going to assume you're going to check it out, look forward to it, but I want to know, are you surprised that it's actually happened? Because it's been in discussion for probably 15 years now. I know that it went from being a Disney channel movie to now being a Disney plus movie, even though it should go theatrical, but there's been a lot of different versions. Are you shocked that it's finally happening?

Vinessa Shaw: I think I was shocked when it finally came through, but you could feel, "okay, this is really going to happen," at some point in the last few years. I think it makes sense it's coming out towards the 30th anniversary. I feel like, first of all, I think you can't do this movie without the three witches. So, I think all three of them were ready to do it again, you know, they were in different parts of their career and I feel like, okay, now it's time for them. So, yeah, I'm excited to see it.

Jeff Depaoli: Awesome. Are you surprised?

Omri Katz: Not really, just because like you've mentioned, it was in the works or talked about for, I would say, at east a decade and I heard all kinds of different rumors. Like Tina Faye was going to direct it.

Vinessa Shaw: Oh yeah, that was in 2019. I was like, "oh. Can't wait."

Omri Katz: Then it kind of came to fruition and here we are now. So, I wouldn't say I'm surprised because it just felt like that was the next step for them. I didn't really put two and two together about like almost 30th anniversary, maybe that's why they kind of timed it, or maybe they just couldn't figure out the right script. Because a lot of people thought, isn't there like a book that's kind of, and I thought that's what people were like, "oh they're going to write a script based kind of off of that, our future our children. Blah, blah, blah." They obviously went down a whole other path.

Jeff Depaoli: Were either of you contacted all about the sequel, like was there any trying to get a cameo in or anything like that?

Vinessa Shaw: No. No, but I think, I think Thora was, yeah. None of us were.

Jeff Depaoli: What are they thinking? Mistake.

Omri Katz: I think a lot of people are disappointed just because they're such fans of the first movie. They were like, "not even a cameo?" Like, well, I don't know. It could have been the janitor or a waiter at a restaurant.

Vinessa Shaw: That's funny.

Omri Katz: Whatever, it doesn't matter. Hey, really good at mopping, just so you all know.

Jeff Depaoli: Well it may not be the movie sequel, but Max and Allison, as you mentioned, are in Hocus Pocus and the all new sequel, which was a 2018 book. Has anybody read it? Anybody familiar with it? A few of you. This was a book released by Free Form Books. Disney owns Free Form, so this is cannon, it's real, and Max and Allison have a 17 year old daughter in that. Is that how you imagined Max and Allison? I'm sure you stay up at night thinking about this right?

Omri Katz: High school sweethearts?

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah. Did you think if there ever were a sequel that Max and Allison would still be a thing, or did it kind of surprise you that they've written them together still? You don't think about it?

Omri Katz: No, no. Not from my point of view, but Disney stories are usually have that kind of like happy ending, right? You know, like traditional, it's not like, "oh Max and Allison are divorced, there's a custody battle. And I'm taking you to court." I don't think that would've played very well.

Jeff Depaoli: So, the janitor is no longer a virgin, they have a 17-year-old.

Vinessa Shaw: We live happily ever after. I feel like they would've, Thora and I talked about this, we're like, "yeah, Max, would've wanted to move back to California. He hated Massachusetts. He would've never stayed."

Omri Katz: For Allison he might have. He might have been like, ":I love this woman. I'm staying wherever she is.

Vinessa Shaw: That's true. So, that would be the only way, because she's such an east coast girl, apparently. Like her mom, ran the Sanderson sister's museum, so she's kind of embedded in her hometown.

Jeff Depaoli: That would've been awesome if the museum was open again in the sequel and you were running it. Oh my God.

Vinessa Shaw: Wouldn't it have been?

Jeff Depaoli: Oh Disney.

Omri Katz: Hocus Pocus 3.

Jeff Depaoli: There we go.

Vinessa Shaw: The way it should be.

Jeff Depaoli: Now I'm going to ask you a question, and you're going to be inclined to answer it a certain way, but I'm just going to say, be honest. Of all the films you guys have made, where does Hocus Pocus lay for you, as far as either a phenomenal movie making experience and/or just finished product, among your favorites?

Omri Katz: From stuff that we actually participated in? For me personally, I'm going to put it at number two.

Jeff Depaoli: What is number one?

Omri Katz: Eerie, Indiana. By far that was my favorite production to work on because it was just like a kid in the candy story every week. Like, "my God new set, new script, new this, new that!" It was just full excitement the whole time. I wish it continued, I really wish it did.

Jeff Depaoli: How about you?

Vinessa Shaw: Mine's number two as well. First is Eyes Wide Shut with Stanley Kubrick, but it's because he literally changed my life. That experience was unbelievable. I mean the finished product was what it was, of course, but my experience was what I treasured the most. Hocus focus is definitely number two, because of my childhood, it's basically my childhood. I love it that it's everyone else's childhood too. So, it's like I'm 16 nerding out that I was in a Disney movie when I watch them, and so I feel like I'm on the same wavelength as everyone else when they love it. I'm like, "you don't understand, I was nerding out too." So, it's definitely number two. Then I'm still friends with everyone. If Thora were here, she'd say it was her number one.

Jeff Depaoli: You think so?

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah. She loved this movie. She said it was the best experience she's ever had on any other movie. She's done, you know, she was a child actor and has worked with many people, has an academy award winning movie. And she just, you know, loves this movie from top to bottom because of our bond, the three of us, and the experience too.

Omri Katz: Yeah. The relationship on set was just like very family like.

Vinessa Shaw: Yeah, it was.

Omri Katz: You know, like us portraying, Thora being my sister, it kind of just felt like that. I kind of feel like almost every production I've worked on, there's always been this like family, very close atmosphere with people that you work with. I don't know if that's like a cast/actor thing, but I always felt super close with crew and cast, everybody. At least, for me personally, I'm sure there's some difficult people to work with.

Vinessa Shaw: I've had the same lucky experiences too.

Omri Katz: Yeah.

Vinessa Shaw: But this one was particular. I talk about Kenny Ortega all the time, because I think he basically made it a magical place and he hired people who could do magical things and he just had that extra edge that made it special and Disney like. Every day he would come in and welcome me on the set, "Hello!" You know, it was just so like, "come, let's see what we're doing today." Then ask us cute questions. I'm sure y'all have seen the 25th anniversary DVD, but that was like every day he's like, "who would you rather..." And just, you know, just ask us funny questions and make us engaged so that we would be excited to come to set. Kids can space out or get too stiff and he just never wanted us to be that way. He just wanted us to have fun.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome. I'm curious. Did either of you ever like dress up as a Hocus Pocus character for Halloween or anything? Or get any trick or treaters dressed as them?

Vinessa Shaw: I feel so bad. Thora should really be here, because she loves Halloween, and I'm sure she's dressed up as one of them. I have not.

Jeff Depaoli: If you had that red hood still, you could totally just wear that every year, "this works."

Vinessa Shaw: For sure. God, I'm such a dumbass. Why did I not get that hood?

Omri Katz: I never have. But so many people are like, "why don't you just drew as Max for Halloween?" And it's basically being myself.

Jeff Depaoli: I want to see you dressed up as Ice.

Omri Katz: That would be pretty cool. Yeah. They, they old, uh, what does he have? Like a fedora, like a rain hat?

Jeff Depaoli: I want see the haircut, that's why I want to see, the back of the head. Come on. That'd be pretty awesome.

Vinessa Shaw: And how, how about them? They're just the bullies like Ice and Jay.

Omri Katz: Their chemistry is really unique. Watching them work together was like, everything was super spontaneous and they just got to ad lib and do a lot of fun things.

Jeff Depaoli: I saw Jay on This Is Us recently. Anybody watching This Is Us? I'm sitting there watching like, "that'...s he's from, Hocus Pocus!" Like it's crazy. So that was fun.

Vinessa Shaw: They're the nicest guys too. See, we just had fun the whole time.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome. I think we got a little bit of time. It's a small room, so I'm going to open it up. If anybody wants to raise a hand and ask a question, anybody? Nobody has a question, therefore I did an amazing job. Let's go. We'll go front row. And then right behind front row here/

Question: Did you get to keep the cross trainers?

Omri Katz: No cross trainers, but I did manage to steal one of those bikes/

Jeff Depaoli: Really?

Omri Katz: The Grain Horror bike, they had five of them because whatever reason. I begged the producers. I'm like, "please can I love this boke, I love it!" And they were like, "all right." Actually it is kind of funny, my dad was digging around in his garage and he's like, "ah, I have some memorabilia and stuff from this and that." I found the tie dye shirt. I actually have the tie dye shirt I was wearing.

Jeff Depaoli: That's awesome.

Omri Katz: And maybe for this Halloween I'll be Max Dennison.

Jeff Depaoli: Oh my gosh.

Omri Katz: I got to get a wig.

Jeff Depaoli: I like it. I like it. Bill actually still has a book, one of the books.

Vinessa Shaw: Oh really? Nice. Oh wait, you told me that.

Omri Katz: With the animatronic?

Jeff Depaoli: No, not the animatronic.

Vinessa Shaw: That is in Florida. Disney, I think.

Bill Sandell: The book the kids all ran around with.

Omri Katz: Because we had a few different versions, but that was definitely the eyeball one. Yeah.

Jeff Depaoli: There was another question I don't want to miss right behind. Go ahead.

Question: Do you get tired of being asked about Hocus Pocus?

Vinessa Shaw: No, I really don't. Because again, I feel like I get brought back to the feeling of me being a kid again and what harm in that is there and it's just fun. I get it. I get some people are just like, "ah, that was my... you know, so long ago I've done so many other things since then." But I, again, it was one of my most treasured times, so I feel I could talk about it forever.

Omri Katz: For me personally, I would say no. I'm not tired of talking about it because I kind of like dipped out and disappeared for the last whatever, 15, 20 years. So, like only now I'm starting to talk about it again, it brings back all these like fond memories and yeah, I guess I'm not tired of talking about it yet.

Jeff Depaoli: I was going to say, I remember seeing you at the 25th anniversary and being surprised, because I recognized that you kind of left the industry and stuff. I was so delighted to see the three of you together again, because I kind of never thought it would happen.

Vinessa Shaw: It was kind of some wrangling to get him to do that.

Omri Katz: I was going to say they were like, "come on, come do it." I'm just like, "you know what for you guys I'll do it." Kenny, actually he was the one that was like, "come on, just do it." I had like my agent, from when I was a child, contact me, I hadn't spoken to her in like 15 years. She's like, "you should do this, come on." This and that. And I was like, "all right, I'll do it."

Jeff Depaoli: Before we run, I do want to touch on a movie. Who's seen Matinee? Any Matinee fans? Anybody? Do you guys not even know of the movie Matinee? Oh my God.

Omri Katz: Also another, another real fun production.

Jeff Depaoli: John Goodman plays like an Alfred Hitchcock type of character. He made like a silly sci-fi horror movie and you're in it, and it came out the same year as Hocus Pocus, '93, I believe.

Omri Katz: Maybe. I filmed it the year prior. So I filmed it in '91, and it might have come out in '92, maybe '93.

Jeff Depaoli: It was '93.

Omri Katz: Maybe earlier in the year, I don't know.

Jeff Depaoli: Regardless, check it, check out Matinee. Really, really fun. Cool movie.

Omri Katz: Especially like the last scene, the theater scene, where everything's rumbling and falling apart.

Vinessa Shaw: I auditioned for Matinee. I didn't get the part.

Jeff Depaoli: Did you really? That would've been so funny if you two had done both of those back to back.

Vinessa Shaw: I probably wouldn't have gotten it if I just done that movie.

Omri Katz: Kelly Martin was my love interest.

Vinessa Shaw: I auditioned for that part, yeah.

Omri Katz: And Lisa Jacob from Mrs. Doubtfire was in that, and I just saw her at NinetiesCon like what is that? 30 years later. I'm like, "oh my God, how are you doing?"

Vinessa Shaw: She's nice too.

Jeff Depaoli: Love it. I love it. Well, we're going to wrap things up in a second. I just want to mention, if you guys are big fans of Hocus Pocus, I have interviewed a bunch of the people who have made the film. So check out DizneyCoasttoCoast.com or just search for Dizney Coast to Coast, Disney with a Z for lawsuit reasons, on your favorite podcast app. Before we go, any last thoughts about just the memories of Hocus Pocus or just the unbelievable fact that we're talking about it 29 years later after it was a massive flop.

Vinessa Shaw: I just want to thank everyone.

Omri Katz: You keep mentioning what a massive flop it was.

Jeff Depaoli: It's amazing to me though.

Omri Katz: That's great. I'm glad like the most important thing...

Jeff Depaoli: Flops and virgins.

Omri Katz: By the way, it was a massive flop in case you guys didn't know.

Jeff Depaoli: You want to know why I say it so much? Because I love to shove it in Disney's face. I'm like, honest to God, there would not be a sequel if it weren't for these folks.

Omri Katz: A hundred percent.

Jeff Depaoli: Disney didn't want to make it.

Omri Katz: The fans made it what it is. So F you Disney.

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah. Especially since you're not in this sequel. Yeah, but sincerely, like they wanted to forget about the film.

Vinessa Shaw: They did.

Jeff Depaoli: And that's why I mentioned it's a flop, not because I think it deserves to be a flop, but it's these folks.

Omri Katz: I mean, the actors were a flop, but...

Jeff Depaoli: Yeah. Anyway, any other thoughts or we're going to wrap it up here?

Omri Katz: No.

Vinessa Shaw: No, we just want to thank everyone for being amazing fans for almost 30 years. Again, it's amazing, your children, some people your grandchildren are now watching it, and I can't wait to show it to my son one day and be part of the legacy too. So, just thank you so much for loving it as much as you do and watching it during Halloween, or just any time of the year, which is a lot of people do when they're feeling low. They're like, "I just watch it just because it's fun." Thanks to all the boyfriends or girlfriends of your significant other that makes you watch it and then you just sit there and go, "oh yes, honey. It's great." So, thank you too.

Omri Katz: Be like, "yeah, great movie."

Jeff Depaoli: We're going to end it there. Thanks guys for coming, really appreciate it.

Omri Katz: Thank you. You guys. Thank you so much.