LIVE from Midwest Haunters Convention 2023

Philip Hernandez:  From the lobby of the Convention Center in Chicago, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30. I'm Philip, and Scott, hello, Scott.

Scott Swenson: I know we're actually in the same room, we're in the same country, we're in the same state.

Philip Hernandez: We're sharing microphones.

Scott Swenson: We're using the same microphone. It's amazing.

Philip Hernandez: Oh, my God, here we are. So, Scott, we're in Chicago for Midwest Haunters Convention and we should talk about that since we're here.

Scott Swenson: Yeah, yeah. So, it's my first time being back at Midwest in a long, long time, and it's interesting to see because, you know, people will often say, "What's the difference between different shows?" Like Transworld, Midwest, and all the others; we were discussing this last night, actually, over dinner. This feels like it's, obviously, more of a regional show, hence the term Midwest Haunters Convention, but it's been an interesting show in the fact that there's not a whole lot of, I won't say there's a ton of like new Earth-shattering, groundbreaking stuff that we've seen, but I don't know whether that's necessarily the point of this particular show, because it does come later in the season. It's significantly after, obviously, Transworld, and at this point in time, so many of the professional haunters are already buttoned up and ready to go; they've made their orders, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But this is more of a show for the smaller independent haunters, as well as home haunters, and just people who are crazy excited about the Halloween season. So, it's really unique.

Philip Hernandez: It does feel like there's a lot of, I guess, more consumer enthusiasm. There's a lot of people that are just excited about Halloween here. The thing that stuck out to me is they have a costume contest, but there's just a lot of people just wandering around in costumes, you know?

Scott Swenson: Oh yeah, there is a large element of fan show with this. Lots of haunt actors. As far as attendees go, that's who I have run into the most, which is honestly one of the reasons that I'm here. One of the projects that I'm working on is based in Barrington, which is just outside of Chicago, and we actually decided to do our auditions for that during this show, because we knew it was going to be filled with haunt actors. We've had so much interest that I'm actually flying back next weekend to do another round of auditions based on names and emails that we signed up for. A lot of the folks on the trade show floor are haunt actors or haunt enthusiasts, and makeup artists, scenic builders, and that sort of thing. 

Scott Swenson: I will say that so many of the vendors that we've talked to are basically sold out or booked out of their product. One of the vendors that I talked to actually said because of the nature of this show, they're actually here to sell off their... it's like a bump and dent sale. They're here to sell off some of the product that's not the top quality, but is sitting in their warehouse. They figure, because their stuff is really high quality to begin with, a home haunter might be fine that there's an air bubble in the casting or whatever; because they feel they can cover it up with something. Especially, if they can get a top-quality product for a significantly reduced price. So, there was one product, and I wish I had it with me because I'd like to demonstrate it, but I don't. There's one product that is called the Aztec Death Whistle, and it sounds exactly like a human scream. It was sold out within the first, I would say, hour of the show. It's a perfect example of people are, I mean, clearly ready to buy this season, most of the vendors and manufacturers are, if not sold out, booked out based on the capacity that they can produce. Certainly the higher-end vendors are stuck in that position as well.

Philip Hernandez: So, I would say, going on that, I thought some of the takeaways are, I still think for smaller attractions that stuff like this is a good opportunity for you to get in front of your potential clients. We do see a lot of them here. We see the Chicago Zombie Walk and all those smaller local attractions that are here that are talking to locals, right? There's a lot of locals here talking to people within driving distance. Then, I think, on the flip side, from the operator standpoint, this just underscores how maybe the traditional buying schedule for theme parks and attractions may not be the same as it used to. Or shouldn't be the same.

Scott Swenson: Well, and I think it can be the same anymore. Because again, there are... I hate to keep using the term post-COVID. But, since COVID became an issue, there are a lot of vendors that have gone out of business. So, therefore there are fewer and fewer places to get stuff, and it's no longer just a situation where it's, "I'll just go to somebody else." Somebody else doesn't have it either. You either get your orders in early, or you have to either make your own or go without because so many of, especially the scenics, the props, and the animations, their shops can only make so many between now and delivery in August or September. So, I think the thing that I'm seeing illustrated here over and over again, going back to your take away is, if you don't get your stuff, and the vendors that I've talked to say it's only going to get worse.

Philip Hernandez: Yeah, I agree with that. 

Scott Swenson: So, you need to start, if you as a theme park owner/operator/manager, you start backing up your timelines to get your creative done sooner, and then get your orders in. But what that means is you have less flexibility to continually change things. So, you need to back up your ti1meline at least six months from where it is right now.

Philip Hernandez: Yeah, I mean. We've talked about this before, but it's just, things are difficult. It's all part of the same problem, right? The staffing makes it difficult. We know a lot of teams that are still struggling to get back to full capacity at the theme park level, and that means that they don't have as much help to plan the seasonal activations out as long as they al know they need to, and then that leads into this ordering problem, and you just don't have the designs ready, or you don't have everything fully signed off by all the team members, and it slows this down but this is the problem we're running into. Yeah, I do think it's going to come to impact some of the events this season.

Scott Swenson: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Again, I think it's something we have to recognize, it's going to impact this season and what can we do so it doesn't impact next season? That's really the most important thing I think I would like people to recognize, and certainly something that was illustrated, in no uncertain terms, here at Midwest. Even with the local haunt that I'm working on here, with Terror Roulette, we've had a challenge with people saying, "Well, it's kind of early to start thinking...." No, it's not.

Philip Hernandez: It's late.

Scott Swenson: It's late to start thinking about casting and staffing. We all just have to train our minds to think, and you and I have said it for years, but the haunt industry has to be a year-round gig, because you have to be planning for the next year almost about the time you're finishing up the previous year. So, that you can get your orders in, you can get your cast lined up, you can get your additions built, you can get your video or audio recorded. There's a bunch of stuff that's going to take longer and longer, and with fewer and fewer outside vendors to help it's going to be essential that you work smart and long-range versus hard and in a panicked short-term.

Philip Hernandez: The other big takeaway I thought was... to give context here, before the trade show was the haunt tours, and it was one day where they did a bus tour and they took you to Hush, Erebus, and Eloise. Then there was a Friday night experience at the Joliet, the old Joliet Prison by 13th Floor. So, Hush is one of my clients, so I was at Hush, working at Hush for the full day. I didn't do the full tour, but what I saw was just like the importance of that type of thing, like the importance of people touring facilities is so important. I know that we do this, everyone does it, IAPPA does this, Florida Attraction Association, there are all sorts of groups that do this. But, it's still important when you're doing a specialty thing like Halloween, it's still important to tour facilities just to understand. 

Philip Hernandez: At Hush we have the secret bars, that's our program, that's our thing. We had the bars open, and that was a big deal for us to be able to have the bars open to show people this is how they work, this is how the secret bars work, this is how the drinks operate. That was a big deal. It is difficult, I know, I was talking to Erebus, and he said 60% of his show was dark for the tour because it was under construction, right? So, again, it's this whole difficult thing like, if you're working on the attraction year-round, you're in the middle of build season, so there are only a few months where you could even tour other facilities, but then you're also busy at your facility. It's a tricky balance, but I think it's important. That's what I took away from the people who were there, all these industry professionals, it's so critical for you to see. You know, it's fine to still go to Disney and go to Universal and go see how these bigger chains operate and see how they do their shows, but you need to see other haunts.

Scott Swenson: Oh absolutely.

Philip Hernandez: You need to see how they're doing it. If you have a haunt, you need to see how they're doing it. 

Scott Swenson: I know that there are some folks, and believe me I've talked to them for many, many years, who believe, "Well, we're a theme park, we don't really have to go look at independent haunts." or "There's nothing we can learn from a home haunter," and then at the same time, will turn around and go, "Well, we're so over budget." Well, there's a lot you can learn, then, from an independent haunter or home haunter, because they take the shoestring budget that they have and try to tell the same kinds of stories that you're telling in a giant theme park setting. So, if you want to learn how to work smart, not expensive, go and visit some other haunts and see what choices they've made. The other thing to recognize is, you will learn not only what you should do, but what you shouldn't do by visiting other haunts. You go, "This doesn't work for me and I don't ever..." But what's really funny for me is I've talked to so many people who said, "I didn't really care about that. I didn't really care for that at that haunt or that experience." Then they go back and realize, "Oh, wait a minute. We do that here." So, it's nice to be on the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Philip Hernandez: So, you can see the operations, how people are handling guest flow, and the throughput, you can see the other ways of approaching the same type of problems to see what you think about it.

Scott Swenson: Sure, and all too often when we're running, whether it's a haunt or anything else, we are focused on what is easiest for us and what is the operational side. But, when all of a sudden you jump to the other side of the railing and you're a guest, you realize, "Oh, this does not make my experience good, or this makes my experience great and it was really easy for them to do." So, yeah, there are always learnings from visiting other attractions.

Philip Hernandez: It's interesting to me because I spoke to a lot of the owners and operators that came through that I just recognized who were coming through at the end. We kept on schedule, so they had time to eat at Hush, and we served them lunch. But what it kind of reminded me of is that as a reporter, as a journalist, this being my beat, I see all these attractions. But just seeing some of the haunters who really never get to do anything outside of their state or maybe they get that one ticket trade, that they do with your neighboring haunt and they get to go see that. So, it's like you're hyper-aware of what's going on next door, but you have no clue that one state over they have a solution to this thing that you weren't thinking about. I think that's one of the reasons I think what we do is so important, to go and bear witness. I can make a video and I can talk all day, but I kept hearing this all day. I kept hearing, "Phil, we loved your videos of Hush. It was phenomenal. It is nothing like seeing it. I finally understand."

Scott Swenson: Yeah, that's so true. I've heard it on the show floor here, we've been talking about different haunts and asking, "Have you seen different people in different haunts or different haunt experiences?" They're like, "Well, no, because I'm always working my haunt. So, I don't get a chance to go out and see other people's work." So, that's another reason why these kinds of bus tours are so very important at these kinds of trade shows. I realize they are difficult, you know it, you worked it. They are difficult for the haunt to bring everything up to speed and get all their staffing.

Philip Hernandez: We definitely lost money. Let's just put it that way.

Scott Swenson: But, you gained recognition. These should not be looked at as, necessarily, financial wins, these are friend-raisers, not fundraisers, you know?

Philip Hernandez: That's a good point. I mean, you do need friends, you never know the talent. How many times have we seen people that we know bounce around between all the different companies?

Scott Swenson: Of course. Well, and again, looking at talent in this market, I'm not familiar with this market, but I've talked to multiple people who either have or will audition for us in the near future. They're like, "Well, I've been working at such and such a haunt for so many years and I've been looking for a new gig, so it's kind of fun to see that there's a new kid in town." Then what's going to happen is if we play our cards right, we'll be able to get the experience that they got from other haunts to be utilized to help us get better. So yeah, friends are good

Philip Hernandez: So, I think, in keeping with the theme of where we're at Midwest Haunters Convention, we're talking about Halloween, there have been a lot of Halloween announcements that have come out recently. We'll kind of take them, I guess, one at a time. Probably the biggest one is that Halloween Time is coming back at Disneyland, and this year they're beginning September 1st through October 31st. Looking at the line, it's basically the same thing they've been doing previously, in terms of entertainment, nothing is changing. What is changing is the time, you know it's coming back for the full two months, the same as Halloween Horror Nights in Orlando. So, it's really bringing that full-time of September and October to the West Coast. Disney gave a nod towards that in their press release by just saying that, "this will give fans extra opportunity to enjoy the holiday." Which I thought was a funny nod to it. The other thing is that Oogie Boogie Bash is returning for 25 select evenings from September 5th through October 31st, which is also its longest run. So, they're keeping the offerings the same following time, but they are expanding the timeline and they are expanding the number of nights and the date range for Oogie Boogie Bash. Oogie Boogie Bash will have new characters and some new activations, but none of that has been announced yet. So, it's just Halloween Time right now. 

Scott Swenson: Well, again, we've seen this trend continue over the last several years, Halloween used to start at the last two weekends of October and that it has just continued to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow. That's very simply because the demand continues to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow. We're not quite at the point where we're year-round is commonplace. There's a part of me that kind of hopes we don't get there, because there's something very special about looking forward to the Halloween season.

Philip Hernandez: No, I actually agree. A lot of people have talked to me about us and our coverage of the Horror Nights expansion into Vegas and the IT thing. Let me be clear, I do not believe that you should do a year-round haunted attraction in most markets. I think if you're going to do it, it needs to be over 50 million in tourism in the city that you're in and you need to be in a high foot traffic area. I don't believe you should do a haunt year-round, and that's because they're really terrible businesses. You need the demand to fill it, because they're like restaurants, every time you open your doors, you're just losing money, right? And you need to get enough people to offset the money you're losing. So, I don't believe you should do it. Now, I believe that year-round horror has a place in almost any market, because horror movies that come out year-round, there's streaming, there's The Last of Us, there's so many. Horror as a genre can work, and I think year-round horror can work. I do not think year-round haunted houses are a good idea. 

Scott Swenson: I agree, but I do think that because the demand is there, that's why we're seeing parks expand their date ranges earlier and earlier and earlier each year, and some are even going later and later, it all depends on where Halloween falls too. You know this year, Halloween falls on a Tuesday. So, my guess is they will end with Halloween on Tuesday, but in the coming years, when Halloween is like on a Thursday, they may go all the way through Saturday or Sunday, into November.

Philip Hernandez: Yep, so on that chain, Knotts is kicking off their 50th anniversary this year for Knotts Scary Farm. It is interesting to me, they are not opening earlier at all. They announced that they'll be opening on September 21st. They are offering a season pass for pass holders. They can add a season pass to come every night for $149.99, so they can add it for $150 on top of your season pass if you have one, and you can come in September 21st through Halloween. It's only available on select nights, mainly weekends. So, it's just it's interesting because it's their 50th-anniversary celebration and they are going to be the last park to open in the SoCal region for their 50th, and it's only going to be on select nights, which means their run is going to be much, much smaller. 

Philip Hernandez: So, I guess, just interesting to me. I guess I was thinking they would open earlier, or that they would extend their select nights. I'm not saying that we should hold them to the same standard as Universal Orlando because the market is larger and the parks larger. But when you compare and contrast, you have Disneyland that starts September 1st, that's almost three weeks earlier, and their Halloween offerings are available every day. Then Orlando, as a select experience, they start September 1st and they're doing Wednesday through Sunday right off the bat. So, they're not even starting until Friday, or Saturday. It's almost like a regular haunted house.

Scott Swenson: Well, and to me, I kind of look at it and think with Disney, for example, and maybe you can answer this question, I don't know. With Disney, since it is family-friendly and kind of a reskinning, so to speak, of the experience. My guess is that Disney is cross-utilizing a lot of their day assets, and by that I mean their staff more than anything. So, instead of Mickey a Minnie going out and waving in their hometown square costumes, they go out and waving their Halloween costumes, which would make it easier to start earlier, cause you have to bring on additional staffing to do that. So, family-friendly events, generally speaking, can start earlier because they're cross-utilizing the labor that they already have, reskinning their product, and retheming it. When you get into things like Halloween Horror Nights or Knott's Scary Farm you're bringing in a completely different audience, a completely different cast, a significantly larger contingent. 

Scott Swenson: With Knotts, I'm curious to see how it's going to play out, because I don't think it's necessarily wrong to do less. If you can get the level of excitement and energy, based on the crowd size, if you can get that elevated, it makes the experience better for everybody who goes to it. If it's too low, it's less exciting, and if it's too high, you're standing in queue the whole night. So, I'm curious to see if they're trying to find what that right balance is. I don't know, but we'll see, we'll see how that pans out.

Philip Hernandez: I guess the only other thing I was thinking is that they haven't announced what they're going to do for the 50th anniversary yet. It just seems to me like, in my brain I'm wondering, is this a staffing issue? I mean we just talked about the creative teams being cut back. I'm not sure how everything is working over there right now. I know there was a lot of movement post-pandemic and whatnot. But to me it's like, "Well, it's your 50th. Shouldn't it be a big deal? And shouldn't we have started the PR machine and the announcement machine and getting things kind of..."

Scott Swenson: My guess is, and I have no insider information, so this is completely conjecture, but it sounds to me as though they had plans and then didn't have the finances to execute them. So, therefore they had to change. This sounds like, because they haven't announced anything, because they're, in essence, starting things late or pairing things back, it sounds like there are some decisions that are being rethought or remade. I don't know whether those are based on the park profit margin, whether those are based on staffing, or whether those are based on just why are we doing this, do we need to do this? I don't know. I think it leads to a really good takeaway for everybody, and that is one mediocre decision is significantly better than no really good decisions. The longer you wait to implement something, the longer you wait to pull the trigger, the less likely it is that you're going to be able to successfully and cost-effectively install it.

Philip Hernandez: I do agree with that. So, also speaking, I don't know that's speaking about that in particular, but in keeping with the theme of expanding events and Halloween seasons, Ocean Park is going to hire 1200 temporary staff this year for the Halloween event, which last year they hired 800 people. So, it is a significant increase in the number that they're hiring temporarily. This includes 500 roving characters, stuntmen, and actors to perform in the haunted houses and the performance shows. Previously this Halloween event was the largest in Asia, right? Then this pandemic and there were changes in the leadership, and they went through that crisis that we've talked about that that all institutions that are not... I mean it's a conservation institution and it's a kind of a state-owned park, and so they did go through that crisis of, "Is this in keeping with our brand identity?" Then as Scott has talked about many times when it came down to how much money did it make versus does it fit with our brand? They realized that money is good too, and money can help them conserve things and help with conservation.

Scott Swenson: If it brings in dollars that can be used for conservation programs... I've worked with many, many organizations that have their feet in the entertainment and the education side, one foot on one side and one foot on the other. There's always that discussion, and there should always be that discussion, of how far are we going one way or the other. I think, as long as you can identify, for Halloween, for example, Christmas is the same way. As long as you can identify, "This is the brand of this event, which financially supports the conservation side for the rest of the year," then it's totally justified, and it also puts people into the park more often. Seasonal activations, as we've said ad nauseam, bring people back to the park.

Philip Hernandez: So, it's just interesting that they are going back in this direction. 

Scott Swenson: They have to make up for lost time, they've been dark for a couple of years.

Philip Hernandez: Yes, and this shows a full commitment. I mean 1200, for that area, is a lot. The competition is Hong Kong Disneyland, there's Soo Skies, and that's it. It's not like they're competing against a lot of people, and that being said, the reason why it's such a difficult thing is the staffing. Because there are not many attractions in the area, not many theme parks, there are just not the scare actors. When I talked about this, when I did the story with that before, they're flying people in from other countries and they're housing them there. So, 1200 people means they're going to be bringing in people from other countries to work and to have to train them to be scared actors.

Scott Swenson: Yeah, it's funny because I was just going to say, you know this market better than I do, are they going to be able to find 1200? The answer is, no. But that's something that years and years ago, Busch Gardens used to do even for frontline employees. They would bring them in from other countries, they would provide housing. I know that that's happening at Sea World Yas Island, Abu Dhabi. They're bringing people in from other countries to pretty much do any and all of the, not just the performance, but also the frontline labor positions, because the market is just not there to have those kinds of people to hire. So, they have to cast wider nets. It's funny that you said that. I was just thinking, I don't know if I'd want to try to cast 1200 people, even in this market, which I know, but in a market that I didn't know.

Philip Hernandez: Well, we would be remiss if we did not talk about this news as it was relatively large across all spheres. Basically, as I'm sure our listeners are already aware, but Disney and Apple announced a collaboration on their VR/AR/storytelling experiences. So, for the background. Apple unveiled their New Vision Pro VR system, and they did a combined announcement with Disney. Disney CEO Bob Iger joined CEO Tim Cook at Apple WWDC23 to announce Disney's collaboration for future VR and AR endeavors with Apple's just-announced Vision Pro headset. I feel like there's this could be really cool, you'll have to wait and see. That seems like this whole thing. There are not many details about either item, the item doesn't go on sale until early 2024. The Vision Pro is set at about $3500. Retail price $3499. Bob is great, he's always great at setting the vision and getting people excited about ideas. But that's just what it seemed like to me. He said, using the Vision Pro's VR to its full advantage it would be possible to do things like, sit in their own Star Wars speed car on Tatooine while watching the last episode of Mandalorian. So, I think he is trying to paint the vision of an extended experience, and bring it into your room and blah blah blah, but we don't have any details. 

Philip Hernandez: I will just note that when Apple announced that product, it's been the rockiest product launch they've announced in 20 years. Their stock took a dip because investors weigh prospects of the company's pricing new computer Eyewear, Vision Pro, and critics called it nerd goggles. So, this is not a surprise to me. I've been telling people that this was going to be their rockiest product launch in 20 years. If you just look at though, at the history, everything else has made sense and it's been iteration in the past several decades. So, every new product has been met with stock upticks and increases. This is the first time it's been, I'm not sure, but I'm sure an analyst out there has already done the research in terms of saying, how much did the stock dip cost them, versus how much did they invest to make it and that was probably was not good. But I'm sure they're hoping that when it comes out, and I'm sure that's the whole reason for the Disney collaboration, honestly.

Scott Swenson: I was just going to say, that sounds to me like the perfect reason to announce this Disney collaboration, just to put a little shot in the arm going, "This is not just a stand-alone piece of tech." They're making it more accessible, in my opinion.

Philip Hernandez: Yeah, like, "We already have partners on board, the best storytellers in the world, and are vouching for this technology."

Scott Swenson: Yeah, and it could mean that you can do this, this, and this. I also think it's interesting that it is Disney because Disney has pulled back on their metaverse research and now moving forward on their virtual and augmented reality side.

Philip Hernandez: Yes, that's exactly it.

Scott Swenson: I think that is a much more accessible choice. I think that Metaverse is still too much of a concept. I also like their approach and the fact that, you know, in order for the Metaverse to work there has to be a real-world application, and that's something Disney can do with their with their eyes closed. So, it's interesting to see that this is a little bit of a sidestep for Disney, perhaps, but you're right I think it's a win-win. I think, what Disney gets out of it, from my perspective, is they get to say, "OK, we're back on the bleeding edge of technology," and Apple, as you said, gets to say, "We've already got some of the best storytellers on board."

Philip Hernandez: My take was, it's all going according to plan, as I think you and I talked about the last time we talked about this, which is that the Metaverse, and that whole thing, there's going to be an infrastructure, that's going to power all of that system. As we talked about previously, Disney realized they don't have to make the infrastructure. If they have incredible stories, people will come to them, and what just happened? Apple is like, "We have this new infrastructure," and who did they go run to as their partners? 

Scott Swenson: It's Disney. Yep.

Philip Hernandez: With Iger back, he is saying, "What we do is tell great stories. If we are the best storytellers and we have the best IP, it doesn't matter what the world is doing because they will come to us to tell that story." 

Scott Swenson: Yep. Well, this particular story is over for this week, because we have hit our 30-plus minute mark from the Midwest Haunters Convention in Rosemont, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. On behalf of Philip Hernandez and myself, Scott Swenson, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30, and we will see you next week.