Staffing Incentives & Live from Transworld’s Halloween Show

Philip:

From our studios in Los Angeles, California, and Tampa, Florida, this is Green Tagged Theme Park in 30. I'm Philip, And I'm joined by my co-host Scott Swenson of Scott Swenson Creative Development. This week, we are recording this a little bit early because both Scott and I, by the time you are listening to this, both Scott and I are at Transworld Halloween and attraction Show in St. Louis. So, we are future traveling?

Scott:

We're future casting. We're prognosticating. We're looking into the future based on what we know from the past. Just to be fair, The Transworld show also is co-located with the Transworld Christmas show, as well as the Transworld escape room show. So, needless to say, Philip and I are busy while you're listening to this, We'll be running around. However, we are going to try to grab some time to actually bring you breaking information so that we can be timely, And really the second half of this show will be all focused on what we have learned, what has happened at the Transworld show. So, if you're expecting Transworld show information, it will be here, but not until later in the show. This way we can keep us ahead of the game just a little bit.

Philip:

And we recorded this on Sunday, March 13th. So, if something did happen between then and now that is big news, we will talk about it next week.

Scott:

Or we'll talk about it later in the show when we're coming from Transworld. We have our insurance policy if we need it, we just wanted to make sure that we had at least half the show recorded, because we know we're going to be busy. We know that with any large trade show, whether it is the Transworld show, even IAAPA Expo, or whatever, we're running around like crazy people. So, we wanted to make sure that we could get part of the show done, and in order to do that, we're going to dive right in.

Philip:

Yes, there are some stories we have here about employment and jobs, and these are actually old stories. We haven't had the opportunity to cover them in previous shows, but because staffing is going to continue to be an issue, almost even more of an issue, I think in the summer, this summer and fall, it's a huge issue. These are two really big stories that came out a while back. The first is Herschend Enterprises and their release about, let me just read from the press release. So, this was back on February 8th.

QUOTE-https://herschendenterprises.com/files/HerschendEnterprises_GROW_U_Press_Release_20220208.pdf

Today Herschend Enterprises, the nation’s largest privately-owned themed attractions corporation, announced it will cover 100% of tuition, fees, and books for its 11,000 employees who choose to pursue further education. The significant investment in employee education will be made through Herschend’s GROW U. The program aims to make it exponentially easier for employees at all levels to pursue their personal and professional dreams through education.

Philip:

The big part with this is that it includes all seasonal, part-time, and full-time employees across the 25 US attractions, and lists the attractions here. This is huge. I always thought this was a huge story. I'm so impressed by this because of the things where it's all the employees, full-time, part-time, seasonal. They do have a list of programs and etcetera, it's similar to the Disney program a little bit in that there's a list of approved things you can do, but still, I think it's phenomenal. I think that this is what I mean when I say that the theme parks and attractions, we need to rethink work and rethink the concept of what it is, our culture and all that kind of stuff. It can no longer be enough for just people to be only excited about, you know, "playing a part in the show", there has to be a little bit more, in my opinion. I think this is a wonderful example, and I'm so curious to see how it's going to turn out. It's just, win-win, all those things. I don't know. Anyway, Scott, what do you think?

Scott:

Well, I agree with you with all of the feel-good stuff. I think it is important because it is truly... For years we've always heard, "our greatest asset are our employees." Well, Herschend is clearly putting their money where their mouth is, because they're investing in--they're not just compensating, they're investing in--improving that asset, improving their staff, and giving their staff the opportunity to improve themselves, and potentially improve themselves to the point where they're going to leave them and go somewhere else. Which is not a bad thing in the theme park industry. Once you have had someone who is committed to you as a company, they will continue to bring their families back to your parks, they will continue to support parks, they will continue to send other people there to work if they're at a different point in their career. So, I think this is incredibly wise.

Scott:

I am going to throw one tiny little caveat in there, because I do think there are going to be some folks who are just going to say, "well, I don't want to go to school. Can you just pay me more?" Because they don't want to have a career other than, you know say they're a retiree, they've gone through their entire career, and now they're doing something just so that they can still see people. There's a lot of theme park employees who are retirees who just aren't quite ready to kick their feet up and do nothing. By the way, they're phenomenal employees usually. So, this may not sit well with them, it might, I don't know. That's the only negative I can see to this, but I agree with Philip a hundred percent, I think this is really, really exciting. I am very curious to see how it pans out for them, and I am hoping it works well, because if they can set the standard, I think this is something that can expand to other companies. I think it's something that can expand to other industries.

Scott:

For years we've been talking about the high cost of education and how are we ever going to continue to keep young people involved? They've targeted elementary and high school to get STEAM and STEM education, and encouraging young kids to be involved in math, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This is taking that to the next level, and it is a corporate sponsored investment in their people. I hope this works. That's the way I really feel, I hope this works, because in my heart it feels like exactly the right thing. I will say I have been wrong before, but I hope that this is the case, because it really feels right to me.

Philip:

And to Scott's point, you are going to need to think about how to make it "fair" to everybody in terms of, if you are offering a thing that only some people benefit from what do the other people get? I do think though, I will push back a tiny bit because I do, maybe I'm assuming, but I think a lot of attractions, we pull a lot of our workforce from the younger crowd. So, I do think it it's skewed terms of numbers that way, but I do agree. For example, at Gantom we recently increased our paid vacation days to kind of, you know, be fair with industry standards and et cetera, et cetera. I got feedback from all of our staff before we implemented the change, and one of the feedbacks that we got was exactly what Scott said. We had two people that said "I don't like to go on vacation. I love to work every day. I want to work. I don't want to use any of my time, and what are we going to get if we don't use our vacation?" So, we worked out a buyback plan where the vacation time doesn't carry over, but you can buy it back at the end of the year, so they can get a bonus. They thought that was fair, but it's that exact point. No matter what benefit you give people, you're going to have people that use it and some people that don't, and the people that don't use it you need to be thinking about how it's going to be fair to them.

Scott:

Yep. Again, I think that you're right, Philip, I think this does target exactly who they're aiming for. I also think it's a great entry position opportunity. But I also have recognized over the last five years, especially, at least here in Florida in this market, the theme park employee age is going up. This is not the cool high school gig that it used to be, younger, people are recognizing, "I can make more money by being an influencer. If I can monetize my Instagram page, then it's much easier than dipping ice cream." So, again, I hope it's right. I'm not saying it's wrong. I think it is absolutely wonderful. I hope it works, and I hope it works exactly the way they think it's going to. I hope that what Herschend sees on the back end is their senior leaders, their management team, commits early, educates themselves, and helps make the company better as they move up within the hierarchy.

Philip:

Yeah. Well, our next story on staffing is from Funspot, and this is less of a story, there's not actually a story, I just found it and I'm reading it. But basically, Funspot is now matching salaries for locals. "Here at Funspot America, we value your talent and experience and are looking for the best of the best to join our team. That’s why we will match your salary if you work in any of these jobs." They list jobs like quick service, food preparation, cook, theme park attendant, rides, guest services, cashier, host, et cetera, et cetera. "Simply apply online today or in person at our Orlando or Kissimmee location." So, actually, I don't love this, I feel like this is the wrong way to do it. Also, I'm not sure why you would, you would leave a different job and go to Funspot. Basically, I think what they're saying is if you work at Universal or Disney and you're making 15 or more, you can come to us, and we'll match your pay. But why would you want to leave those jobs and go to Funspot? I feel like they're a lower brand. Sorry, but that's just my opinion.

Philip:

Also, again, this is creating that uneven inequality, like, you're going to bring in cast members from other places that are going to get paid more to do the same job as people that have been there at Funspot longer? So, you're going to create resentment among your staff? Why? That doesn't mean that they're better at the job because they're coming from a different location, it just means that they're coming from a different location. You know, it doesn't mean they know the Funspot culture or et cetera, et cetera. And if you are trying to argue, those people are better, then you're kind of just shooting yourself in the foot because then you're admitting that your programs aren't good enough to train your staff.

Scott:

Well, I think there's a couple of, I don't disagree with you in theory. I think there's a couple of practical things that you're not necessarily including in your concerns. Number one, Funspot is competing directly with Disney and Universal for people to sell popcorn. If they can't get those people to sell popcorn, they don't sell popcorn. So, I don't know what else they could have done, they're never going to be a Disney brand, they're never going to be a Universal brand.

Scott:

Secondly, the other thing that I think you have taken into consideration is, there are very few people in Orlando who only work for one theme park, certainly from the front-line standpoint. Obviously from the executive standpoint, yes, you work for one park. But I have many, many, many, many Orlando friends who are entry level positions, or as I just talked, about retiree positions, who work at Disney, Universal, and perhaps even Funspot for no other reason that then they can go and enjoy these, it's cheaper than buying a season pass. So, what they do is they commit their employment to it.

Scott:

So, I don't think they're asking anybody to actually leave these other parks. I think what's really happening is they're getting people to consider them as one of the additional parks that they belong to, so that they can have the opportunity to keep their staffing going, but also compete within the market. So, I agree with you in theory, but I think there's some, some practical sides there that makes me understand why they did it. Let me put it that way.

Philip:

Yeah. When you asked, you're not sure what else they could do. They could do something like, I don't know, offer education.

Scott:

But again, Funspot is not a career, Herschend is.

Philip:

I'm just playing kind of the devil's advocate and putting that out there of like, you know, they could use out of the box thinking to come up with some sort of benefit that is competitive.

Scott:

But based on history, for Funspot to match Disney in pay rate is out of the box thinking. That's something that has never been done before. They have been considered the sort of I-Drive, or depending on which location, there's two of them, they've been sort of the, "gosh, we can't afford another Disney ticket, so guess we'll come to us." By matching pay, they're also elevating their employees feeling, like you're worth as much to us as you are to Disney. So, is it the perfect answer? No, I don't think it is. But is it unique for a park of that size? Absolutely. Is it unique for a park of that size in Orlando? Absolutely. Is it a necessity? Probably. Does it match into the utopian view of how theme park should run? No.

Scott:

I'm always the one to say it's not money that brings people in. However, I think that Funspot is in a world of hurt. I was there not too long ago, and when you see one culinary location open because of staffing, and you see what I call roaming blackout of attractions because they have to move their operations people from one attraction to another, that is not good. They are also starting to see the same increase in attendance that every other theme park is starting to see, and they've got to do something, and they've got to do it now. So, that's it.

Scott:

Well I will say that, in addition to jobs, there are a whole bunch of a whole bunch of things that are coming back online, a bunch of attractions are expanding, and I think probably the one that we should talk about real quick before we kick things over to us at the Transworld shows is that tickets are now on sale for Midsummer Scream, which is taking place July 29th through the 31st, at the Long Beach Convention Center in Long Beach, California. I will say, people who listen to me on other podcasts, mine for example, have heard me say that I absolutely love this show. This is a show that is put together by Halloween lovers who happen to work in the industry. So, it's the perfect combination of fan show and industry show. So, they're back, they're putting a whole sort of renewed focus on what made Halloween cool for us when we were kids. I always like to say that I was kind of the last generation of the golden age of Halloween, because I still trick or treated, and I trick or treated until I was about 13 and it was still okay. So, I'm excited to hear this. Philip, I know this is in your backyard, so it's much closer to you than it is to me. What are your what are some of your takes and what are you excited about for this upcoming Midsummer Scream?

Philip:

I think the David Markland, you know, the co-founder said it perfectly here in the release.

QUOTE-https://www.nbclosangeles.com/the-scene/a-huge-halloween-event-is-on-the-winter-wind/2841229/

“As Midsummer Scream returns, we’re putting a renewed focus on what made us love Halloween as kids, and the traditions we’ve continued through our lives. That includes the magic of trick-or-treating, celebrating the classic monsters of our childhood, and preserving the history of our favorite holiday.”

Philip:

I think that kind of summarizes it well, because what makes that show so unique is that they do incorporate those elements, because they have a Hall of Shadows, They allow local attractions to come in and set up walkthrough displays--which is very unique in the trade show type of thing of having those type of interactive exhibits--And this year they're launching a museum of Halloween. So, he's completely right. I just love it. I love that they work so closely with the attractions. That's kind of why we thought it was important for this show. It's a fan show, it's for fans of Halloween. But you know what? Those are our customers. As attractions that do Halloween stuff, fans of Halloween are customers, and so I like how Midsummer prevents an opportunity for attractions to engage with their customers in that sort of meaningful by putting together exhibits and interactive elements, and getting people excited about the Halloween and fall season. The smart attractions bring something great, that is a memorable moment to hear, and they sell tickets, like at the show, that's the smart way to do it. I think them providing a service that is brilliant.

Scott:

It feels a very unique niche in the in the milieu of trade shows. Speaking of trade shows, as we mentioned at the beginning of this show, Philip and I are actually at the co-located Transworld Shows in St. Louis. What we'd like to do is kind of kick it over to us, so that you can hear the most updated information about what the Haunted Attraction Association has just shared in in their State of the Industry discussion, as well as any new information that we have found out about Christmas, Halloween, or escape rooms and how it impacts the attractions industry.

Scott:

So here we are with the second half of our show, and we have just completed not only the Oscares here at Transworld in St. Louis, but Philip, because I was working in getting ready for the Oscares, Philip attended the Haunted Attraction Associations State of the Industry discussion/board meeting/Q&A, all kinds of stuff. So, Philip, what were the key takeaways that you got from the State of the Industry and how different are they from the things that we've been saying?

Philip:

Well, to start off, they did the State of the Industry, which is really just an overview, like a check-in of, here was our three-year plan, how well did we do? What did we do? What did we not do? Where are we with everything? He talked on all the things we've heard so far, the mixers, the Facebook group, the change in the Oscares and that whole program and whatnot. I think the main things that Spencer talked about in his speech was really that there's growth in the industry, and that they're putting together advisory committees for home haunters, as well as an advisory committee to redo the Top Haunts Program. So, it seems to me like they are creating a pathway for the next generation of people that are starting as home haunters, to really inspire them, and then to say, "you're welcome here too, and here's resources for you, and then here's a pathway to becoming a top haunt. Here's what that means. Here's how you get there, and that's how you become profitable."

Scott:

It's really interesting because, offline, Spencer and I had a bit of a discussion about the importance. The haunted Attraction Association is already nailed into the dyed in the wool, old haunters, and they need to continue to offer things to new haunters and bring people into the industry. So, it sounds like they're already making plans to do that, I mean, more concrete plans than just sort of idle chit chat in the hallway at a trade show. It's like, they're actually planning to make that move forward. So, that's great to hear, because that's going to be not only good for the industry, but also good for the Haunted Attraction Association, because it will help them grow their membership, which will then actually benefit all of its members.

Scott:

One of the things that's interesting is, in doing interviews as for the Haunted Attraction Association, talking to vendors over and over and over again, vendors kept talking about how valuable the Haunted Attraction Association is to them, but not necessarily from the concrete things, but from the conceptual things. So, for example, they were talking about how great it was that it provided a forum for a bunch of different members from a bunch of different parts of the same industry to come together, be heard, the mixers, these kinds of things. It helped them as vendors, because then they could help steer and guide their business models to meet the needs of the people in the industry. They credited the HAA, several of them credited the HAA, for being able to do that. So, that was like one of their number one benefits was just the ability to meet with like-minded people. So, it sounds like they're just continuing to reinforce what they need.

Philip:

That's fascinating to have that connection. Of course, the other thing that they mentioned, speaking of the vendors and the vendors being excited, their auction this year was, I think, one of the best on record. So, they raised all the is $30,000 at the auction in one day. They already cut a little bit from the budget because they changed over the PR firm, so they have a little bit of budget, and then they have this in. So, after they pay for the Transworld expenses, and this year's PR firm should be less, so they should have a little bit of money to spend on, as he actually said, more mixers, more in person connection, more training, and more of that kind of establishing getting haunts to top haunts and sharing education.

Scott:

I think that, I'm not always a huge fan of mixers, just because I think that mixers for mixers sake are sometimes not as effective as they could be. However, I think maybe I'll eat my words here, because based on the energy that I've experienced at this show at this, at this trade show, it's never been this energetic. It's never had this kind of, I mean, not since the old days in Chicago. Back in my day... Back in the old days in Chicago

Philip:

You just love Chicago.

Scott:

I just love Chicago. I do. Well, I grew up there, so it's home for me. But there was an energy there, there was a vibrancy there, and that seems to have waxed and waned over the years. But everybody I talked to said, this seems to be a high. There's an energy now, and it's because I think we've been unable to get together as humans and not just the Brady Bunch squares in a virtual call. So, I think that the need for mixers is really important, and I think that the value that's going to come from them is going to be more than just, it's a fun thing to do.

Philip:

People want to see other people again, in person.

Scott:

Yes, and people in this industry, especially. I had dinner with a friend of mine who had never been to a Transworld before, and she and I were talking, and as we were at the restaurant, people would walk by who I knew, and I would get up and I'd say hello. She leans over and she goes, "this is the Huggiest convention I've ever been to." I think that's, this is a perfect parallel to that, we want that physical contact in this industry, in the haunt industry, to see each other. I do think that expands over into just the attractions industry in general, but certainly in the haunt industry where it's, the connections that we make, and the information that we share in a social setting is, if we pay attention to it, can be very, very valuable.

Philip:

Yeah. Well, going off of the connection and people wanting to and all that, that was a big theme in the Q&A section. The Q&A section had three main groupings of questions, which are all things that we have talked about. So, I guess we must be on par.

Scott:

Or they listen to us.

Philip:

Maybe like inception, we incepted it so we could talk about it.

Scott:

Correct.

New Speaker:

Oh my god, we're brilliant. Anyway, so...

Scott:

Or lucky, I don't know which.

Philip:

It was, is demand going to continue to be this robust? It was, how is the war going to impact the attractions? And it was staffing, how is staffing going to evolve in this next year?

Scott:

Were the answers that the board was able to give any different from what we've been saying since the beginning of time? What I gleaned from what I've heard is that they were trying to remain very, very, very, very positive. But do you feel that it was realistic? I ask you, I ask the grumpy member of this duo.

Philip:

Oh my God. You just set me up.

Scott:

I did.

Philip:

I feel terrible. What if they're listening?

Scott:

Well, I hope they're listening. No, it's funny because I just... So, I'm going to go on a side note, what a shocker, little sidetrack here. I just had a great conversation with Joe Thaler who just got the Lifetime Achievement Award at the Oscars. He said, when he was a younger man, he used to hear people complain to him and it would piss him off, it'd make him angry. He said, as he's grown older, I may not like what I'm hearing, but that does not preclude the fact that I still need to hear it in order to get better. I was like, that is the incredible wise piece of wisdom. Again, why he's been around in the industry for so long, and why he's being recognized. So, if there are sort of questionable things and the board is listening, they're are a bunch of grownups. This is a board that I really respect, and they'll hear it, and we're not going to present it negatively anyway.

Philip:

Okay. Well...

Scott:

Well, I won't present it negatively. Philip might be a jerk.

Philip:

I think most of it is half right, and it is very from the haunted attraction mindset, which should not be a surprise.

Scott:

That's kind of the name of the organization.

Philip:

Yes, it is. So, on the demand section, this is something we have talked about. They kind of pushed the idea that you need to plan for just getting better every year, like indefinitely, it's just a continuous thing. We know that that's not true. We know that, you know it's even published in the research that the TEA puts out the ACOM index, IAAPA put out this, everyone, all the research out there shows us that the most likely course of action is that this next year is a continuation of the pent-up demand, because people still want to see each other. But then by next year, things are going to start to equalize, by 2023. That equalization means that you need to have something different, because the competition's going to be greater. That is why the parks are planning their reveals, a lot of them, for 2023, because we all know this. But I think the haunt side, maybe they don't know that, or they don't look at that.

Scott:

If we try to extrapolate a little bit from that answer that you have to continue to grow and grow and grow, what they may be saying is you need to continue to change, and change, and change. Because if you think about it a lot...a Well, but a lot of these independent hunters, a lot of these...

Philip:

That's not what they said.

Scott:

Well, and again, you were there, I was not. But a lot of these independent haunters don't understand, they're like, "well, I got a barn, I can't grow. I can't get any bigger." So, when they're saying grow, they're saying change, that's what I would hear. But again, I wasn't there, so I don't know. The idea of, as you just said, there has to be new because the competition's going to get better. So, we have to continue to, you can't rest, you have to continue to invest, and you have to continue to make your business model and your product offering more robust In order to meet the competition.

Philip:

Because it's going to become more competitive.

Scott:

Correct.

Philip:

That's the other side of the coin.

Scott:

I don't know whether that necessarily makes what they said untrue.

Philip:

It's incomplete.

Scott:

It's incomplete, that is fair.

Philip:

I think all of their answers were incomplete, and I think it's because it really came from just haunted attraction, but of course this podcast is not for just haunted houses.

Scott:

Right, so we see it as a broader spectrum.

Philip:

Their second point to the war, you know, it was like, they didn't say it was going to be good for business, but basically that every crisis previously has only led to a small bleep, and just a small dip, but ultimately a higher recovery, because people need a distraction from bad news. Again, that is incomplete, because what it leaves out is what we have talked about, which is the supply chain disruptions, the increased costs, the increase impact on gas, and those elements. They also leave out the timeline. They were saying, it was like a couple of days bleep. I'm like, no, a little bit more than a couple of days.

Scott:

I was doing haunted attractions in in 2011.

Philip:

They referenced that

Scott:

That was not a two-day bleep, that was a season bleep.

Philip:

They said, by September there was already more people lined up than they had had the previous year.

Scott:

Okay. If that was...

Philip:

In that one haunt.

Scott:

If that was the case, good for them. That's great. That was not what I experienced. That was not what we experienced certainly in the theme park realm, maybe theme park versus independent haunt had a different experience that year.

Philip:

Maybe that's true. It could be people felt safer at smaller places.

Scott:

Correct, they were afraid to go to places of large gatherings.

Philip:

And we saw that with the pandemic too. We saw some people that wanted to go to local places. They're like, I can't deal with Universal Orlando, Halloween Horror Nights10 million people.

Scott:

So, they went to local zoos and they went to local attractions, and that was great. So, as you say, I don't think what they, from what you're telling me, it doesn't sound like what they're saying was wrong, it just was incomplete.

Philip:

Yep, an incomplete perspective on the impacts of that. I will also add that this is, again, a complex system, and I use that by the definition of a complex system meaning that we can't predict it.

Scott:

What you can't see is Philip actually did air quotes.

Philip:

I did air quotes of complex system. We can't predict it. So, we know some things, we also don't the ultimate impacts of it. But, for instance, we do know that the supply chain stuff. We also know, for instance, I can share another thing I was going to bring up this week, and we talked about it, the shutdown in China will ripple through the industry. Our factory was caught in the quarantine zone. So, our factory is shut down for two weeks. When they say shut down, one of our factory guys is still there, and they would not let him leave, and he's sleeping in the factory. He's still working, but he's sleeping in the factory, and we can't ship product out because their view is, even if it's an inanimate object and it's still in a quarantine zone, it cannot leave a quarantine zone. So, even if there was no human and it was just handed off on like on cart, we couldn't get the product out.

Scott:

I think it's a perfect example. At this point in time, my only concern is, I wouldn't give absolute answers either way, because going into the war, we don't have absolute answers, because we don't know exactly how it's going to proceed. It could become an absolute mess. I don't want to sound like a downer, but it could become World War III, or it could end itself rather quickly, we don't know that one way or the other. But, to your point, I think we do have to take into consideration, not just the guest demand, but also rising costs of things, and supply chain issues.

Philip:

Yes, because that's going to directly impact all of that. Then of course the third point being staffing, and I think they did make some good points about raising your wage and paying people, and the overall point, which I think we agree with, they also made is that you have to think about, is the job a good job? Are you making a good job for the person to do? I think that has been overall our point. I would, again though, to echo Scott's previous point, it is about pay to an extent, it's not all about pay. It's about the culture and what else you bring to it. I will say there was a little bit of an attitude about like, oh, people want to be here. You know, a lot of people don't want to be at haunts; a lot, doing a lot don't, it really does come down to the culture. It comes down to, are you making the individual job for the actor good? Or do they pop out of a corner? You know, do they get to have fun at and do it in a structured way or are they popping out of a corner?

Scott:

I will say that the Haunt industry is a little bit weird in this regard. I mean, there are haunts that don't pay their performance. There are haunts that do volunteers, there are haunts that do, "we're going to give you 200 bucks and a pizza for the entire run," which is basically a stipend at best. So, to a certain extent, they are right in the fact that haunters are going to want to haunt. But, at the same time, I think that the industries that do, or the areas that do pay their folks, even if they do pay them, I think they have to make it a good job. I think they have to build that family; they have to build that after dark family. So, I agree with you, but I do think that the haunt industry is a bit of an anomaly.

Philip:

Yeah, and we have talked about, even when it comes down to building that, we have talked about again and again, not only on the network and interviews we've done, but also we've talked about it, and we talked about it yesterday, about how you become more competitive when you think about how you can employ them more year round. Even if you are haunt, how can you employ them all year round? Even booking them to do promo shots, to come in in the November time, and then December. Whatever you can do to increase that, that's all part of this game. They didn't mention any of that, but that's all part of this extended answer.

Scott:

Right. So, it sounds like they they're kind of on the same line, same page as we are, but of course, Philip being Philip, has far more data because that's always the way you work.